Why list building is still the most popular type of ad objective

Inside this episode we unlock the gold to public speaking. Dr Kate Cashman is a speaker, award winning coach and educator helping entrepreneurs find their voice, get visible and grow their business.

Kate shares her Courageous Speaking Method with us, as well as insights and lessons learned about public speaking from a TEDx speaking coach. We dive deep into the imposter complex and how it robs us from sharing our voice (and reframes to help overcome this).

Tune in if you have public speaking on your vision board.

Find Kate at: http://www.katecashman.com/
on Instagram and on Facebook

Connect with me

Website: www.newschoolofmarketing.com
Facebook: @newschoolofmarketing
Facebook group: @newschoolofmarketing
Instagram: @bianca_mckenzie


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Bianca: Welcome to the new School of Marketing Podcast, the Place for Smart, simple strategies that will amplify your business results. Sharing practical tips, insider knowledge and actionable advice. Because marketing is something that every business owner can do. Now let’s get started. Introducing your host, Bianca MacKenzie. Mum, lover of Snow sports, camping, horse riding and in demand launch strategist at Facebook Advertising Knowledge Bank.

Bianca: Welcome to the new School of Marketing Podcast. I’m Bianca Mackenzie and today I’m talking about courage before confidence. How to find trust and use your voice in business with Dr. Kate Cashman. Dr. Kate Cashman is a speaker, award winning coach and educator helping entrepreneurs find their voice, get visible and wildly grow their businesses and careers. As the creator of the Courageous Leader Group program and online course, the courageous speaker Kate supports people to build courage and confidence to lead, live and share their voice in a way that is entirely their own. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.

Kate: Thank you so much for having me, Bianca. It’s great to be here.

Bianca: I am super excited and slight ulterior motive bringing you on the podcast because yeah, I’m organizing a conference of which you are going to be the MC. I’m super excited about that. But yeah, I would love to know more about speaking and about using your voice. So what do you mean by using your voice in business and why do you think it’s important?

Kate: Well, I think it’s one of those things. Whether you identify as a speaker in inverted commas within your business or not, using your voice to me, means sharing what you do and sharing how you can help people, whether that is the product that you are selling or that you create, the service that you provide, the change that you allow or facilitate in others. I think that using your voice isn’t just about getting up on stages and speaking in a very organized context. It is simply that sharing your message, I think it also allows people to find you. So it’s important to use your voice, I e talk to people about what you do. Maybe it’s in small groups, maybe it’s going to events where you meet other people and just sharing what you do in conversation. Or maybe it’s doing online lives in your business, on social media or posting videos of yourself on your website or YouTube, whatever you use in order to share what you do and how you help people. That is what I talk to in terms of using your voice. And I think it’s really important because it allows people to find you and it allows you to tell people what you can do. But more importantly, I think it helps people see that you have a solution or a way of supporting them. And unless you share your voice through all of those different ways, plus more that I just shared, often people won’t know that you can help them in that way or even that anyone can help them in that way.

Bianca: Yeah, I love that. And with social media, it’s become so much easier for us, I guess, to share our voices, because I know the written word is also, in a way, sharing your voice. But it’s different, isn’t it? Especially when you work with someone directly. Yeah. Hearing their voice for the first time. Usually you don’t do that when you’ve purchased from them. Usually you want to hear that beforehand.

Kate: Yeah. And how we talk often, I’ll often say to people, when it comes to writing actual speeches, say you actually have to write a speech or a presentation, I always tell people to verbalize it first, even if it’s through a voice memo, just to start to get an idea of how things might sound. Because the way we speak is actually quite different to the way we write. The words are quite different. So if we want to connect with our audience, the actual use of our voice, the audio of our voice, as you say, is quite different. Not necessarily better or worse, but it is different to the written word.

Bianca: It really is different. And we can have that tone of voice in our written work. Yeah, but, yeah, speaking the words out loud is a whole different story. I do sometimes think that getting on camera might be a little bit scary, but there are so many ways now that you don’t have to. You can literally speak to something and get started that way.

Kate: Definitely. You don’t have to meaningfully look deep into the camera’s eyes, for want of a better word.

Bianca: I know it can be a bit intense. It is a little bit intense. So you’re a speaking coach, so to speak. Sorry, pun. I wanted to put that one in there.

Kate: I love that.

Bianca: I’d love to dive into your courageous speaking method because. Yeah, I’m really interested in that. So talk me through the first step.

Kate: So the courageous speaking method for me is a framework. It’s the signature framework that I work with one on one clients, with my online course, with group programs, and a lot of the speaking that I do. And so it’s made up of three steps. It’s mindset, meaning, and method. Now, the first step is mindset, and I always start there because I can say to someone, Bianca, here’s a great way to improve your public speaking on a physical level. I might go to the method and say, here’s how to deliver a really great speech. But if someone is absolutely terrified of speaking, if they have a real fear of being seen, of visibility, of feeling like they don’t belong, of feeling like an impostor, these are all hugely common mindset and belief blocks that people will have around speaking. It might be that in primary school, someone said something to you, a teacher or another person, you were morbidly embarrassed and you just wanted the ground to swallow you up and you were told that you were terrible at speaking. For example, often we carry those stories about ourselves. I’m just not a great speaker. I’m great at this, but I’m just not a good public speaker. As though there is such thing as the best kind of public speaker, which is just rubbish. But mindset is where you have to start and where I need to start with. Most people I work with because the stories we tell ourselves are so powerful, and that’s often what stops people from opening their mouth or putting their hand up to open their mouth and share their voice in the first place.

Bianca: That’s really fascinating because that literally just took me back to school going, yeah, I was one of those kids that I would just wait till someone else asked a question or answered a question or, I’m shy.

Kate: Yeah. People say I’m shy. I’m not a good speaker because I’m shy. And that’s the story that they carry forward. Introverted people, shy people can be incredible, incredible speakers. So it’s not like, know extroverts with that very American Tony Robbins style of presenting is the best way. That’s not the case at all. And so, again, those stories about your personality that you might tell yourself can influence the way you speak.

Bianca: So fascinating because, yeah, like you said, introverts and shy people, I can imagine they would have incredible messages to share. Yeah. Mindset is definitely something to overcome. Yeah.

Kate: And so for the introverts who might be listening, there are lots of introverts in your audiences who desperately want to see and hear from someone that they identify with. So it may be that flipping your mindset around, people need to hear from a speaker like me or as a speaker, I need to show others that it takes all different types of personality in business. It takes all types of personality for the stage. And so it transforms our fear into, I guess, the first step of being more courageous, which is sharing yourself with the world and the mindset that is, I belong there. I belong there and I can do this. And my voice is the perfect voice for this.

Bianca: Yeah, I love it. We just get in our own way so much. And I’m one of those people. And it’s interesting when, you know, Tony Robbins high vibe extroverts that kind of. Actually, I’m borderline introvert extrovert. I can be extroverted when I kind of am required to, but then I need to have like two weeks in my little cave to recover and totally. And Mindset is one of those things. Before we started recording, I was telling you that it took me a long time before I started this podcast because I Had this story running in my head of, I am not a native English speaker, so I can’t record a podcast, which is obviously rubbish.

Kate: And I’m glad you examined that story and went, hang on. And potentially prompted by someone else. But is that story true? Actually, that story is not true. My brain is just trying to keep me small and safe. It’s taking the well rehearsed path of least resistance, which is thinking, I can’t do this because insert X, I’ll be seen. It puts me at a potential going outside of my comfort zone moment, and that is scary. We don’t like scary, say brains, so they try and stop us from doing that. So examining your mindset can be a really great way to reprogram the way you think, which influences how you feel and influences how you act. It’s like that cognitive triangle. And so starting with the way you think, it has to be there. It has to start there.

Bianca: Yeah, I love it. I love that that’s the first step, and it’s so necessary. So the next steps, you’ve mentioned them, but can you talk us through those as well?

Kate: Absolutely. So the second step is meaning. And the word meaning, in this framework, for me, represents you as a speaker. So the individual qualities about ourselves that make us great speakers. Now, funnily enough, for most people, these are just elements of their personality. So when I often talk to people about the sort of speaker, again, inverted commas that they might become, usually it’s just the same version of who they are personality wise, but in a slightly different context. So this step around meaning is around uncovering your greater strengths as a human and how you beautifully connect with others, because that’s what speaking is. It’s just another way to connect. And where we need to really focus this, a lot of the time is the idea that you, in your experience, your knowledge, your life season, your life experience, that you deserve to be there. And so this is often the step where I work a lot with people on the impostor complex, so I do a lot of presentations on the impostor coMplex. I work with people from corporate organizations, in group workshops all the way through to dealing with this, with people one on one. And it’s basically just another strategy for the brain to stop us believing that we, our individual self, that we’re not enough. So meaning is about you as a speaker and making meaning of who you are and what you can present. So a lot of introverts will come away from working with me or doing my online course, the courageous speaker. They’ll often come away saying, well, my greater strengths are that I’m thoughtful and a considered contemplative speaker. People lean in when I speak because they’re intrigued to hear more. I have a microphone, so it doesn’t matter if I’m quietly spoken. It’s more that the way I think is more considered. And I just think that’s magic, that people can really see that the strengths of their personality are also their strengths as a speaker.

Bianca: I love that because it’s almost flipping the script of that whole mindset thing and diving deeper into it and rather than letting it hold you back.

Kate: Step one is that resistance to, can I even do this? Step two is I can do this, and I’m the best person to share. So the impostor complex is really quite. We could do a whole nother thing on that and how that impacts people in business. But there are different kinds of impostor complex, whether it’s you feel like you need to be the expert in everything, and if you’re not, therefore you can’t share. Or you might feel like when it comes to being an imposter, that you have to do everything yourself, so you’re more of a soloist. If I can’t do everything myself, that must mean I’m an imposter. If I need to ask for help, they’re just two examples. Or the natural talent is another one. Things have always come easily to me in my life because perhaps my brain worked well for school or whatever I’ve done to this point. Now I don’t know what I’m doing, and I feel resistance. That must mean it’s not meant for me and I’m an imposter. So those steps, it’s around really overcoming that and understanding. No, I have something to share. So meaning is about I have something to share. I am the best person to share this message, and I often say one of my favorite reframes for anybody who might be listening and thinking, but I don’t know enough. Or there are lots of people who know more than me or I need to know more. Yeah, I need to know more. I always say to them, and this is a phrase that I’ve heard from several amazing people that I follow in business as well. So it’s not my words, but I use it a lot with people, and that is be a contributor, not a guru. So I can contribute my unique. No one else can contribute the way in their voice, sharing what they know the way that I can, because no one else is me. So it doesn’t matter if someone else is the same area of business as me. How they share will be different because who they are is different. So meaning is also recognizing that regardless of how much you know or how long you’ve been in business, you can contribute rather than having to be the all knowing guru. Like, this idea of guru status just stops people sharing their voice because they feel like they’re not there yet. So that’s the second step.

Bianca: I can totally relate to that. It’s like I’m not.

Kate: Yeah, I say, thank goodness we’re not the same as each other. We can absolutely bring our own special sauce because there is literally no one else on the planet that has had the combination of life and skills and everything from where we live to what we do every day. Literally no one. And so that’s step two. And then step three is the method. And deliberately, I’ve put this last, because you have to both challenge those beliefs that you can speak at all and that your voice is worthy and recognize and accept that you can contribute and that your voice is deserving to be heard before you then work on writing a great speech, delivering a great presentation. Look, you can do all those things. And while you’re still battling mindset stuff, we all have mindset stuff, but I think the idea of talking about method last is to really impress on people that I can teach you to be a great speaker and how to write a great speech. But I also want you to believe that you deserve to be sharing your.

Bianca: Voice and that you’re change your energy.

Kate: Completely change your energy. And you know what else it does? It means you put your hand up to speak more. And what happens when you put your hand up to speak more? You build courage and you get evidence that you can do it. And you’re slowly teaching your brain that I can do this hard thing, because look at this evidence that I have that I can do it. So I think it does change your energy. So even if you even think about it momentarily, your mindset and meaning steps, I think that can be so powerful but the method is about. Yeah, there are great ways to write impactful presentations. I am never going to say you need to use six hand movements every minute or something ridiculous and really scripted like that. Because if that doesn’t come naturally to you when you speak, guess what?

Bianca: You’re going to feel like a robot.

Kate: Yeah. You’re going to look like a robot. You’re going to feel really uncomfortable, and it’s going to take away from your ability to connect with the audience. So method is about battling nerves. It’s about writing great presentations. And by that stage, you’re out of your own head about whether you have anything to share. And I’ll support people then to focus more on. Okay, how do I connect? Yes, I can look at people. There are all sorts of myths around what it takes to be a great speaker. I need to memorize everything. I cannot read anything. I also say that’s rubbish because you can read parts of a presentation and connect with an audience brilliantly. And you can also stand up and completely memorize a presentation and not connect at all.

Bianca: Yeah. Because you’re focusing on remembering.

Kate: Yeah. Or you’re focusing on being someone you’re not. So there’s no truisms. I don’t even know if that’s a word I may have made that.

Bianca: I think it is.

Kate: I think it is too. I think it is, too. So I think we need to focus in that method step on connecting with our audience, having great, meaningful content, and then delivering it in a way that feels really good and dealing with nerves.

Bianca: Of course there’s always nerves, but that’s always. That’s different than mindset and meaning.

Kate: Yeah. And the other thing that I always say is that there are always nerves. And yet I always say that what happens when nerves derail us is essentially that we are making the nerves mean something that they are not or that they do not mean. So rather than layering shame or embarrassment about nervousness, because that’s a whole lot of states and emotions there in one go. Like, yes, I’m nervous, but on top of being nervous, I’m embarrassed about being nervous. I’m thinking the nerves mean I don’t really belong in front of a camera or behind a microphone. And once we do that, we’re all up in our head again. And those thoughts we’re telling ourselves again are just running away with the easiest and most well practiced keeping us small types of feelings and behaviors. So I think that it’s definitely about busting the myths around what it means to be a great speaker, including all those things around great speakers. Don’t get nervous. That’s rubbish. I get nervous. I’ve been a professional speaker in one capacity or another for years and years and years. Like 14 years. I started lecturing 14 years ago, and I still get nervous sometimes. I have strategies to support myself with reducing nerves and anxiety, but I also recognize that nerves are usually a build up of excitement in my body and that what I’m doing is meaningful to me. So I go, oh, yes, I’m nervous. That’s great. So they’re the three steps, mindset, meaning and method. And when you combine them all, it’s about becoming a more courageous speaker, not just a more confident speaker. And there’s an important distinction there because we don’t wait until we feel confident to do something. Because that never happens. Exactly.

Bianca: It doesn’t. No, it really doesn’t. The confidence will follow, but it takes courage, like every single speaking engagement that I’m just thinking about whether it is doing a workshop for four people or whether it is getting on a stage in front of hundreds of people. It’s a different kind of. It’s a different kind of step and a different kind of courage because you can say, I’m a confident speaker, but I don’t know, speaking to.

Kate: In what context.

Bianca: Yeah, I was going to say speaking to 100.

Kate: So then again, there aren’t any. Just, this is true for all things statements. So if you make nerves mean something that they just don’t, then you’re allowing yourself to potentially run off into that. I’m keeping myself small place and to build courage, we recognize, okay, I’m nervous. Great. I can feel the fear and do it anyway. And there’s a reason that that cliche is actually really true, is because when you do something that requires courage, you probably don’t feel ready. You probably feel nervous. You may want to go to the toilet a million times before it happens, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not meant to be doing it. It doesn’t mean anything if you don’t attribute that meaning to it. So rather attribute the fact that, hey, this is important. This is such a great opportunity to build courage. And I don’t know about you, but when I hear this is an opportunity to build courage and be courageous, I feel totally different about an experience.

Bianca: Yes, I definitely agree with that. And I’m just thinking that children are such good teachers of this because I tend to tell my daughter, try it. You might surprise yourself.

Kate: Yeah. Give yourself evidence. Give yourself evidence.

Bianca: Pretty much. We all had to learn things. And she will sometimes say, I can’t. And I said, could you do that when you were a baby? Could you walk when you were a baby? No, I had to practice it.

Kate: I’m like, well, that’s exactly right. Exactly right. And when people are really fearful of public speaking, what do they do? They avoid it. So they’re not ever giving themselves the chance to feel differently.

Bianca: No, you need courage. Yes, you do need courage. And then you get older and you’re like, oh, I wish I had all of that. So, yeah, I’m in that position now where I’m like, you know what? What’s the worst that can happen?

Kate: Yeah. Say yes.

Bianca: Going to do it.

Kate: Yes, absolutely. And that’s just so courageous and so brave.

Bianca: Well, sometimes I just kind of like, shut it off and just kind of go, yep. Just going to jump in.

Kate: Yep. Good on you.

Bianca: I love that so much.

Kate: I love that. So, you know, co convene. And I’m the head of speaker coaching for a TEDX event here in Tasmania, in Hobart. And I say this to people all the time that say to me things like, well, I couldn’t possibly be a TEDX speaker because I’m not X enough. Insert whatever word you want. And I’ll often say to them, what would it mean if you just did what you just said, Bianca? Like, what if you just decided that you were going to give something a go and you just put 1ft in front of the other, and then all of a sudden you’re on that red circle on a stage and giving a TEDx talk, which for many people is on their vision board, but for many others, they’ve never even thought to put it there because it felt too hard or too far away.

Bianca: Yeah, too big. So fascinating. So, head of coaching and co curator of TEDX, can you tell us more about that? Because it’s not on my vision board, but now I think it should be. You sparked something. So I’m like, oh, maybe it should.

Kate: I think so. We reestablished the TEDx Hobart event, which had been run in previous years, many, many years earlier. This will be our third event in May 2024. And the co curation process is about selecting topics and themes that work together and basically organizing and running a great event and making sure that speakers support each other so that we have different interpretations of the theme and just a really interesting day for an audience. So what a lot of people might not know is that TEDX? Yes, it’s the videos that you might see of technology, education and design run by local people. So not run by Ted, the organization, but run by local people all around the world. Most people see those on YouTube and they say, edited videos, and they get shared. And what they don’t often realize is it is an amazing day. It’s an event. We have performers, we have catering, because some people are driven by food. So I always mention have. And we have speakers and performers who will just blow your socks off. And the theme each year is picked, and next year it’s the ripple effect. And so we get lots of really interesting presentations, works of art and performances. So people come and they soak all of that up. So I get to help curate alongside my co curator and the licensee, but I also get to be the head of speaker coaching. So I get to support all of our speakers to craft a TEDx presentation, which is very different to just writing a normal speech. And it’s only 15 to 18 minutes long, so it’s quite short. It is memorized, which is quite different to a lot of the work that I do with people. And basically, I help them bring ideas worth sharing to life. That’s what I do.

Bianca: Amazing. And when you said it is memorized, that’s probably why it’s not on my vision board, because whenever I watch one of them, I’m like, oh, how did I just know? And obviously, with the videos, you don’t see any stumbling or anything like that. And you’re like, oh, can I just.

Kate: Talk to that actually for a moment? Because I think it’s really good. So what you see on the video is the edited version. So, yes, we still say it should be memorized. Does that mean that people don’t ever forget their lines? Of course not. Because there are humans on the stage, and we have human emotions and nerves sometimes do things to people. And guess what? It’s all okay, because I’m always at the front of the room with everyone’s speech in full, and I’m there to prompt them. And I’ve had a speaker who I’ve interviewed for my podcast, who was one of my speakers this year, who. That happened. She got nervous and her brain just sort of shut down a little bit, and I had to prompt her a few times. You would never know in the videos, you would never know that. And do you know she’s had over 1.7 million views of her channel, and yet we so often look at the edited version and say, I could never do that because I couldn’t memorize. I couldn’t do this perfectly. I’m there to tell people that they can do so much more than they think they are capable of. Memorization is just another skill that I teach people how to do in terms of different ways to recall information. We usually have speeches written a month in advance, at least. So then it’s just practicing. And there are lots of different ways to remember those. But what you see on the video is the edited version. I think it’s really important to remember that.

Bianca: Yes. Thank you. Okay, back on the vision board.

Kate: Back on the vision board.

Bianca: Thanks. I was like, oh, I don’t know how I’m going to remember all of that back on the vision board.

Kate: You absolutely will.

Bianca: All right, let’s put it there.

Kate: Yep, done. Excellent.

Bianca: Okay. Based on that, what other tips do you have for someone who wants to speak on a stage, whether it be TEDx or at a conference or something else? Any kind of tips? Because, yeah, do you start small? Do you go big? What’s your take?

Kate: So someone who wants to speak on stage, I think it’s really important to be clear about your message. And this is something that I often talk to people about, whether it’s TEDx, getting on stage or writing a signature speech for your business as a way of promoting what you do and providing great value. Be really clear about what it is you want to share. And if you want to share that on stages or with people, find every opportunity that you can to say yes to, to share that message. So firstly, do the work around mindset and your own speaking personality in that second step of meaning, because once you feel comfortable with your own speaking personality, who you are as a speaker, you’re likely more going to have those conversations with others around nominating yourself to speak to their people or to speak on a podcast or to find a stage. So a tip would be to say yes to as many opportunities as you can, whether they’re paid or otherwise, and be really clear about the message that their audiences or the audiences would take away. Another thing that makes people quite nervous about speaking is they feel the focus is all on them. And rightly so, I guess, because people are looking at you or listening to you. But when we think as a speaker about ourselves and how we look and how we sound, often what that means is we’re just not thinking about the audience as much and the gift that we are to them. And so we are a gift. What we have to share is important. And I think sometimes we need to do that work first and then get really clear on the message that you want to share and start putting it out there. So that’s a really important place to start. TEDX tips are definitely more specific, so they’re a shorter talk. And the idea behind TEDx is, what is your idea worth spreading? So it’s not that you want to just be another inspirational speaker and tell people to love themselves and believe in themselves. You need to be more specific than that. You need to have a novel take. And when I say novel, it doesn’t have to be completely new, but it needs to be an idea that you think the world would really benefit from hearing. And that’s whether it’s TEDx, a conference, whatever that might be. So get really clear on that message that’s worth spreading.

Bianca: I love it, and I really love that you brought up the whole, when you’re thinking about yourself and how you look and how you sound, I was just picturing myself sitting in an audience, and I’m listening to the message. I’m not looking at what the person looks like or what they sound like. I’m like, if you have a message powerful enough, people really are not going to pay attention to you kind of thing.

Kate: No. And this is where a lot of people will say things like, oh, but I say um a lot. And I’m like, I can support you with that. A lot of the time, Ums are because we’re questioning ourselves and our content anyway. And so a lot of those go away once we work on some of those courageous speaking framework elements. But also, to an extent, don’t focus on that. The audience doesn’t care if you say, um. Occasionally. The audience doesn’t care if you read occasionally. The audience doesn’t care if you get a little bit nervous, because people often have that myth around. First impressions count, and they do. That’s great. But when are people most nervous? Usually right at the beginning. So if we judge ourselves on that, we’re derailing ourselves from the beginning. Yeah. The audience isn’t attributing as much meaning to the things that we think make us seem less professional as a speaker or less competent or less confident.

Bianca: And you know what? We’re all human.

Kate: Exactly.

Bianca: And makes you more relatable.

Kate: I think that we’re all wandering around in this day and age in a post COVID world. I actually think we’re all actually looking for greater connection anyway. And so for me, I’m desperately seeking other incredible humans around me to see me as a human. And so that means that when I get up and speak, I want to be as human as possible. I’ll still be professional, of course, but I want people to feel like they’re also having a conversation with me because that’s the way I want to connect with others. So when you stand up, if you feel like you’re connecting with the audience first, and maybe you’ve had a few wobbles, you have done your job so well. That’s what the world is looking for, more connection and more courage. And so focus on that. Go into any speaking opportunity you have, focusing on that and your audience and what they want and how they will feel and how you feel about maybe being a bit wobbly or having slightly shaking hands or going a little bit red, that will diminish significantly. It will just not be as important. It may still happen, but it doesn’t mean anything.

Bianca: Most of the time, people don’t see.

Kate: No, they don’t. They really don’t. They really don’t.

Bianca: It’s kind of incredible what we pay attention to versus what they pay attention to, always. Yeah. If your message is strong enough, they will pay attention to the message and you will be remembered and you will be known for the message, not for the few Ums that you’ve completely give.

Kate: Yourself the benefit of the doubt, like you do for every speaker you do or see when you’re in the audience yourself.

Bianca: Yeah, I love that. And a few Ums. If people can’t put up with that, they probably won’t be listening to this podcast because I don’t edit out all my Ums.

Kate: No, great. Perfect. So good.

Bianca: Because we’re all human.

Kate: Definitely.

Bianca: I kind of feel like that’s like a really good sort of way to wrap up. Unless you have anything else to add, I don’t know if you’ve got any.

Kate: Oh, gosh.

Bianca: Anything that we haven’t covered. But I feel like that is such a good place. Courage.

Kate: Courage before confidence. Courage before confidence and connection. I love C’s. Evidently. Courage, connection, community, confidence. So all of that, I think at the end of the day, aim for courage before confidence and just look at using your voice and speaking as an opportunity just to be a great human and to connect with other great humans who have problems that you can help them solve.

Bianca: Oh, I love that. Thank you so much.

Kate: You’re so welcome.

Bianca: And a few extra questions. I always like to throw this in.

Kate: Sure.

Bianca: What are you curious about right now?

Kate: Oh, what am I curious? Can I be really honest in this question? Because this is probably my typical oversharing. I am really curious about erotic fiction. There are so many amazing apps and books coming out that are written by women for women that I just think are fantastic. And part of me is like part of one, part of my personality is like, oh, I’d love to write this stuff. I just think it’s so permission giving to women to experience pleasure in new ways. So that’s what I’m really curious about. That’s a very random answer to that question.

Bianca: Tell us when your book comes out.

Kate: It’ll probably be with a different author name. Let’s be honest. I’ll find something really cheeky. And of course, we’ll always it.

Bianca: I love it because, yeah, I do. I mostly read country style kind of novels, but there’s usually a few nice scenes in there.

Kate: Saucy bits. Saucy bits. Bianca, that’s what we’re looking for. We’re looking for saucy bits so we feel alive. Come on.

Bianca: And then get up in the morning. You’re exhausted from a night looking after the kids. Absolutely. It’s nice. It’s nice in books. Agreed. It’s nice in books.

Kate: Agreed. Agreed.

Bianca: And if you had an extra $5,000 in your marketing budget, what would you spend it on?

Kate: What would I spend it on? Well, because my course has been relaunched as the courageous speaker, I would probably spend it on Facebook ads. Bianca, I would say.

Bianca: You don’t have to say know.

Kate: No, I know, but I actually genuinely would. That’s my wheelhouse for the next few months.

Bianca: Definitely love it. My dog just got up from the couch.

Kate: Oh, exciting.

Bianca: Even. They’re excited he is joining in. So that is the end of this week’s show. If you have questions about finding, trusting and using your voice in business, head to Katecashman.com. I’ll pop the links in. The show notes. A really big thanks to you, Kate, and thanks to everyone for listening. If you like the show, don’t forget to subscribe and leave a five star rating and review on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you heard the podcast. Your review will help others find the show and learn more about the amazing world of online marketing. And don’t forget to check out the show notes for this episode@newschoolofmarketing.com where you can also learn more about Kate. Check out useful links, download free resources and leave a comment about the show.